Hey, I've been arguing with people a whole lot on other forums the last few days. A lot of fun at first. Now its starting to lose some appeal. First definitions, people almost undoubtedly will say something along the lines of that doesn't 100% meet the definition. Or this isn't true 100% of the time.
I've met quite a lot of resistance in regards to whether or not certain actions qualify as animal cruelty, such as purchasing:
0. eggs
1. beef
2. vaccines
3. milk
Animal cruelty definition. "Cruelty to animals, also called animal abuse or animal neglect, is the human infliction of suffering or harm upon any non-human animal, for purposes other than self-defense or survival." wikipedia
In which case they tend to argue on three fronts.
0. self survival
1. humane methods of raising and slaughter
2. purchasing the product does not equate to animal cruelty
Any advice, I found when online if you make the tiniest mistake or if there is the smallest weakness in your argument, people will find it. In other words the argument must be perfect.
How do I tell people "gee purchasing hamburger causes animal cruelty." Also it shows since by definition survival is an exception the importance of health in the issue. Not many people are accepting that vaccines cause more animal cruelty in the world because survival is an exception.
If you were going to make an argument that purchasing animal products and animal cruelty are linked, how would you make it?
Replies
1. Self survival = The only valid "self survival" argument is if youre talking about eskimos or another extreme, terrible conditions where theres literally no other option. Its 2015 and if someone is priveligned enough to argue with you in a forum, they obviously are not in survival mode needing to eat meat to survive. And if animals serve no other purpose than to fuel youre survival, then why do these people have pet dogs and cats? wtf?
2. Humane methods of raising and slaughter = Whenever i get this comment, i first point out that 99 percent of all animals raised for food is factory farmed. Then I say, is there a humane way to rape a woman? Is there a humane way Hitler could have killed the jews? If you shoot someone in the head while there watching a movie does that make it okay, excusable, justifiable?
3. Purchasing the product does not equate to animal cruelty = Face palm. Thats like white slave owners saying "but I'm not the one who took africans out of their country and brought them to america to be slaves! But since there already here and for sale I should buy them and make them my slaves. The damage is already done once they were brought here!" Or a man who goes to india and pays for children sex slaves to have sex with, saying that he's not their pimp, he's not guilty of any crime. The accomplice of a crime faces the same degree of guilt and punishment as the person who committed the crime.
Why do people kidnap girls and send them to india to be a sex slave? Because theres a market for them and there are people willing to buy these girls. If there were no customers there would be the end of sex slavery. By paying for beef they are paying the electricity bill in these slaughterhouses. If I hired a hit man to kill someone, aren't I off the hook because I didn't do anything, its the murderer who's at fault. Its like, no, the "murderer" is just doing what he's getting paid to do.
My advice is to keep going and watch a lot of you tubers who counteract these stupid claims, like gary yourofsky, bite sized vegan, vegan embassy, ect.
At first when I went vegan and would argue with meat eaters, i wasn't as sure what to say, i didn't have all the facts, arguments ready, but as time goes on, now every meat eater i talk to is left not knowing what to say, they agree with me, but usually still not wanting to go vegan (grr!). But its all about planting the seeds.
greetings ariel! and welcome to 30bad!
this is an excellent post you have put together!
in friendship,
prad
This is possibly the most annoying omnivore argument. I'm pretty good at annihilating paleo arguments within an hour, but this one give me trouble. Lab grown meat. There just doesn't seem a way to argue against it on grounds of animal suffering/cruelty.
that is correct. from an ethical standpoint there is no argument against lab-grown meat (anymore than there would be against plants). in fact, since this would presumably eliminate animal suffering/cruelty ar activists should support it. environmentalists would support it too i would think. nutritionalists may argue against it though depending upon where they stand.
in friendship,
prad
Still annoying about the lab grown meat. If I make the statement, meat should be banned. People will be like, well there's lab grown meat, so no not all meat should be banned.
What about insects? Some people argue that banning insect meat would be wrong.
Meat qua meat is not the problem; murdering animals is. If you say "meat should be banned", it ought to be clear that that you are talking about meat harvested from the corpses of murdered animals. If someone says that lab-grown meat should be legal, simply agree and ask if they A) only consume lab-grown meat B) are helping make lab-grown meat more accessible to the general population.
Insects are sentient, each a unique individual capable of pain, suffering, a conscious avoidance of death, and a preference not to be harmed. Being small and voiceless is not a justification for violence against them. That we incidentally harm them all the time is also not just cause for intentionally wreaking still more havoc upon them.
I would argue that insect meat is worse because since they are so much smaller, so many more would need to be killed in order to sustain a human.
That we incidentally harm them all the time is also not just cause for intentionally wreaking still more havoc upon them.
excellent point, jacob!
it is important to differentiate between incidental and intentional especially when the tu quoque contingent starts chorusing the i-gotchas.
this matter came up rather desperately in the exchange with mario:
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:493412
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:494863
mario got kicked off 30bad due to some outbursts about teeth problems back in 2010, so you have to piece together his so-called argument from my responses to him.
speaking of insect sentience, the measure of a bee dual posts addresses some of these matters with some references too:
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:499852
http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:499853
and rvg being a wesley will no doubt appreciate the title of those posts. ;)
in friendship,
prad
Read through the measure of a bee post. I'm not quite sold on the idea. Yet, I'm always eager to try new ideas. I often argue both sides of the same issue, the idea behind this algorithm is the stronger case will win. I think this tactic helps me get past personal bias and prejudice. There's no reason that you have to believe in an idea in order to argue for it.
I found the people who use higher language and peer reviewed sources love the plant sentience defense. That plants are sentient too and either A. both plants and animals should have equal rights, since both can feel pain and suffer. Or B only humans should have rights.
I find these people particularly annoying and hard to forgive because they are so intelligent. Something about the random person shouting profanity is just laughable. Yet, the people using the highest language and peer review journals to dismiss my arguments in a disrespectful way just gets to me. I can feel my cheeks still warm from the last person who made this argument.
Thanks for listening.
i have not found that the more 'intelligent' venture into such unsubstantiated claims. however, if they really are more intelligent, you can provide yourself and your audience much amusement so long as you
1. remember it's not about you or your flushed cheeks
2. see opportunities they provide to do stand-up comedy
for instance, see how sam harris handles the good rabbi (who is quite a capable opponent, btw) in this little classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22cYcsVPOok
in friendship,
prad
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