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Why we need as many calories as we do...

Posted by Audrey Walker on September 20, 2011 at 3:10am in Main Chat

Hey all,

I know we discussed this topic before but I never got a response that really made any sense except for Adam's theory that is has to do with the fact that fruit and veggies have lower protein content than most cooked food.

 

I started thinking about this again after reading Morraine's recent post about eating dried fruit where she mentions that she's noticed that she requires 2 to 3 times more calories eating fruit versus eating low fat cooked carbs.

 

I've heard many others on here say the same thing and I've noticed the same thing myself as a previously obese cooked vegan that is now chronically underweight on LFRV due to my inability to eat enough volume in fruit calories.

 

So I'm asking one more time: Does anyone have any other theories as to why we need to consume more calories eating a fruit based diet than with a low fat cooked vegan diet? Do others agree with Adam its because of the lower protein content? If so, this gives me some hope that maybe I can explore working with the protein issue since just eating more seems to be very difficult.

 

I want to make it very clear that I"m NOT challenging the validity or beauty of the low fat raw vegan diet in ANY way, I'm just trying to understand it more clearly and figure out the best way to make it work for me after 8 years of struggling to eat enough fruit.

 

For those of us that struggle (and from reading the boards there are many of us) to be able to handle the volume of food required on LFRV it would be extremely helpful to understand the science behind what is going on. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

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Replies

  • Sunshine January 17, 2012 at 1:07am

    to maintain body weight or increase it and rejuvenate all the cells.

  • Marina January 17, 2012 at 1:05am

    I applied! :D I want to attend so much. It is not easy to earn so much money in Serbia, but I'll give my best. Besides, last August, I got a part time job at a macrobiotic vegan festival in Italy. I gave drawing workshops and I filmed the festival, so maybe I could also be accepted to volunteer at this great festival. 

    And... in the application form guess whom I put to sponsor! :) With all the info u give here, u deserve it. :)

  • Nickalas Angel January 16, 2012 at 2:40pm

    EXACTLY!

  • Marina January 16, 2012 at 2:51am

    Wow Don, this is really nice of u. Thanks a lot! 

    However, I want to connect with other people for real. That is my main goal for attending a festival. With all the friends I have, I feel lonely sometimes. Do u think that the fruit festivals in Denmark and Spain will occupy as many people or Woodstock is the greatest one?

  • Marina January 15, 2012 at 10:53am

    Oh, I would love to!!! But, cannot promise anything, I live in Serbia, first of all I need visa to enter the States and then the cost... Hm... WOULD REALLY LOVE TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Marina January 14, 2012 at 3:19am

    Read the whole texts! Excellent! Thanks!

  • RawDad January 14, 2012 at 3:15am

    Yes.  Jeff Novick of the McDougall camp says it's evident that ~ 12-15% of the sugars in fruits are not utilized - they pass out with the fiber.

     

    Personally ... I have noted I need about 12-15% more calories on fruit vs starch.

     

    15% of 3000 is 450.....

     

    I seem to get by on 2600 ... with starch.    On fruit - I need 3000.

     

    If volume is an issue - try soaked dates or using a bit of food processing to aid your cause.   Fresh juices (just before, during, or after exercise) can help as well.

    • Jacob Heitmann > RawDad January 16, 2012 at 7:15am

      Yes.  Jeff Novick of the McDougall camp says it's evident that ~ 12-15% of the sugars in fruits are not utilized - they pass out with the fiber.

       

      Do you mean the "sugars" are the fibers or that simple sugars are caged up among the fibers. We 811:ers eat around 70-120 grams of fibers and that's roughly said 400 calories that we aren't getting, but iscalculated in the total calorie summary.

       

       

      For example: If I eat bananas for 3000 kcal, I would get 88 grams of fibers and if half of the total fiber intake is lost, around 143[1]"calories" of fibers, would just pass through me (1 g carbohydrate equals 3,6 calories) If I only ate peeled oranges one day, I wouldn't get 3000 calories even if cron-o-meter says so. I would only get around 2700 kcal. 

      How much energy is in fiber, and therefore how many Calories are in fiber, is still unclear. According to a 2002 report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) regarding dietary reference intakes, the energy yield of fiber when consumed by humans is somewhere in the range of 1.5 to 2.5 Calories (kCal) per gram (6.3 to 10.5 kilojoules per gram).

      http://www.wisegeek.com/do-fiber-calories-count.htm


      We get mostly soluble fibers from fruits, we also get insoluble fibers that counts as 0 kcal/g. According to the table below I would get an estimate of 2600 kcal[2]  on an Orange Island  and on a Banana Island 2771 kcal[3] according to my calculations, while the Cron-o-meter says 3000 kcal!


      "Most soluble fiber is used by the bacteria in the colon to produce short-chain fatty acids which provide energy to the body, approximately 2 Calories (8.5 kilojoules) per gram of soluble fiber. Becuse these calories do not raise blood sugar, so they don't count towards the total carbs."

      Soluble & Insoluble Fibers In Fruits

      Serving Size Total Fiber (g) Soluble Fiber (g) Insoluble Fiber (g)
      Apple 1 small 3.9 2.3 1.6
      Apricots 2 medium 1.3 0.9 0.4
      Banana 1 small 1.3 0.6 0.7
      Blackberries 1/2 cup 3.7 0.7 3.0
      Cherries 10 0.9 0.3 0.6
      Grapefruit 1/2 fruit 1.3 0.90 0.4
      Orange 1 medium 2.0 1.3 0.7
      Peach 1 medium 1.0 0.5 0.5
      Pear 1 small 2.5 0.6 1.9
      Pineapple 1/2 cup 0.8 0.2 0.6
      Plums 2 medium 2.3 1.3 1.0
      Strawberries 3/4 cup 2.4 0.9 1.5
      Tangerine 1 medium 1.6 1.4 0.4

      Soluble & Insoluble Fibers In Vegetables

      Serving Size Total Fiber (g) Soluble Fiber (g) Insoluble Fiber (g)
      Broccoli 1 stalk 2.7 1.3 1.4
      Carrots 1 large 2.9 1.3 1.6
      Corn 2/3 cup 1.6 0.2 1.4
      Lettuce 1 cup raw 0.5 0.2 0.3
      Parsnips 1/2 cup cooked 4.4 0.4 4.0
      Peas 1/2 cup cooked 5.2 2.0 3.2
      Potatoes 1 small 3.8 2.2 1.6
      Squash, summer 1/2 cup cooked 2.3 1.1 1.2
      Tomato 1 small 0.8 0.1 0.7
      Zucchini 1/2 cup cooked 2.5 1.1 1.4

      http://www.fatfreekitchen.com/soluble-fiber-foods-list.html

       

      Without making any conclusions, a theory would be that on a SAD lifestyle, The IOM reports the median daily intakes of fiber to be 16.5 to 17.9 grams per day for men and 12.1 to 13.8 grams per day for women, 


      [1] 88g fiber x 3,6 kcal = 316,8 calories (according to Cron-o-meter)

      316,8 - (2 kcal/g x 88 gram) = 142,8 kcal not absorbed, not including the calculations of insoluble fiber don't give any calories. 


      [2] The fibers of 3000 calories peeled oranges gives: 153,2g fiber x 3,6 kcal = 552 calories (according to Cron-o-meter). About half of the fibers are insoluble and won't give any calories and the other half gives 2 kcal x 72,1g = 153,2 kcal. So the total would be 552 - 153,2 = 399 kcal = 2600 from a 3000 intake.  


      [3] 3000 calories of bananas gives: 88g fiber x 3,6 kcal = 316,8 calories (according to Cron-o-meter). 

      88 / 2 = 44 x 2) = 88 kcal. 316,8 - 88 = 228,8. 3000 - 229 = 2771 kcal.


      - - - - - -

       

      Now I wonder if Jeff Novik uses these calculations that I just did. If he does, according to him it's not the "sugar" that we can't absorb, it's half of the soluble fibers and insoluble fibers that we can's use as fuel. 

       

  • WendyE January 14, 2012 at 2:35am

    Audrey - I haven't read through all 13 pages (bad me!) but I don't have time, and want to mention this JIC it wasn't mentioned before...

    One problem may be that you are waiting for "true hunger". This won't work. The cleaner your diet is, the more your signals of hunger change. If you have ever read Eat to Live, he discusses that the symptoms of "hunger" most people experience aren't really hunger - it's your body desperately trying to detox the last meal. We think it is hunger because the only thing that stops it is eating again. Because then your body is busy digesting & can't detox. The symptoms appear to be sated by food, but what you've really done is distract your body.

    Also, for this diet to work you have to focus on fruits that give you a lot of "bang" for your buck. (Is that phrase too American? LOL). Dates are a fantastic way to get those calories up in a hurry. So are mangoes.

    I've been hitting 3500 - 4000 per day, and haven't struggled after the first few days. But I'm gauging how many calories I've had versus what time it is. It's noon and I've only had 800? I need to eat something high-calorie. Oh - it goes down, no worries! I was eating every 2 hours the first few days, now it isn't necessary.

    But just now? I went too long without eating because of my kids' schedule. And I didn't feel hungry at all. But I just ate some bananas because I *know* I need the food. I might not feel "hungry" again all day - but not eating would be really bad for me. I would be tired and crabby and not think of WHY.

    If you wait for what you *think* are hunger signals (based on a previous bad diet), you're going to starve...

    Best wishes to you -

    • Marina > WendyE January 14, 2012 at 3:29am

      I got to comment here... I think that it is not wise to force one to eat. No one will starve if does not eat for a day. It is actually pretty difficult to really starve. Only people in the 3rd world countries who starve all their lives have real issues with that. I have to say that I eat a lot, but I know that Hunzu people for example, get only around 1900 calories per day, they are very active, strong and have long lives. Alright, I know, they are not 100% raw, but still... I also heard of personal experience of people who fasted for more than a week and experienced to feel great and energetic due to their fast.  

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