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Does protein make you fat?

Posted by Tim on April 16, 2016 at 4:58am in Science

Hi everybody,

I've just been promoting RT4 to some other vegan friends of mine and I found I couldn't really answer when they asked why/how protein makes you fat. Now clearly this is just an example of something that just entered my head as 'fact' without me being able to back it up with logic (surprising and worrying how easily that can happen!), and now I would like to correct myself! I know I've heard Freelee and DR say that protein makes you fat in their videos, but I couldn't easily find a credible scientific source to back that up. Can someone link me to the right resources, and give me the layman's version? :)

Thanks!


Tim

P.S. I'm only a few days in to RT4, and this is my first post in the forums, so 'Hi' also :)

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  • Frantz April 23, 2016 at 5:20pm

    "If you don't abstain from fat and you overeat, you will burn the carbs and store the fat.

    If you do abstain from fat you will burn the carbs and perhaps, maybe a very minuscule bit of fat is created through de novo lipogenesis, nothing worth mentioning though. overconsuming 100 kcal of carbs, even if there is de novo lipogenesis going on will produce nowhere near the amount of bodyfat you'll get from 100 kcal worth of fat."

    Correct. De Novo Lipogenesis is not significant under normal circumstances or small amounts of over consumption. The problem is with greater amounts of over consumption. Here is a direct quote from one of the studies referenced by McDougall. The last sentence is key:

    Hellerstein (1999) has pointed out that the de novo lipogenesis is a path of last resort in regards to carbohydrate metabolism.  The pathway for converting dietary carbohydrates into fat, is present in humans, but the capacity to convert fats into CHO does not exist. Eucaloric replacement of dietary fat by CHO does not induce DNL to any significant degree. Similarly, addition of CHO to a mixed diet does not increase DNL to significant levels, as long as CHO energy intake remains less than total energy expenditure. Only when CHO intake exceeds total caloric expenditure does DNL contribute significantly to the whole-body energy balance.

    To paraphrase: Don't take in more carbs than the total amount of calories you burn off or you'll pay the price. Anyone who gets 80%-90% of their calories from carbs but doesn't lead an active life is in danger of meeting that criteria.

    • Taka > Frantz April 23, 2016 at 10:26pm

      If that's the case i am meeting that criteria. If i should get significant weight gain from consuming more carbs then total calories that i burn, that means i must at least somehow be burning 3000 kcal a day, but definitely not by concious activity i perform, unless my body makes very inefficient use of energy to perform simple tasks.

      About your last sentence, i doubt that, especially when eating whole foods, because of the volume, also carbs are just 4kcal per gram while fat is 9.. all those people eating high carb low fat who aren't bothering about caloric intake are eating what in my opinion should be considered underfeeding in terms of calories. Personally i'm afraid of consuming that little calories, i'm afraid to lose weight.

      plus as one of the studies mcdougall references says carbohydrate overfeeding increases leptin concentrations by 28% (and 24hr energy expenditure by 7%) while overfeeding fat does none of that.

  • Frantz April 20, 2016 at 10:22am
    Doesn't matter what you call it, math is math. I haven't condoned anything just stating the numbers. Even if the carbs don't convert 100 percent to fat, it will catch up with you eventually, and it has caught up to many people. The answer is to eat according to your activity level and lifestyle but not more.
    • Taka > Frantz April 21, 2016 at 2:31am

      math is math indeed but it doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about..

      It's like mcdougall says (based on research) from lips to hips, the fat you eat is the fat you wear.

      The body does the most efficient thing with everything..

      protein is used to repair things here and there and the excess is excreted through the urine.

      Sugar/carbs is used to run the machinery, excess sugar is burned of for heat or fidgetting or whatever, converting it to fat just doesn't happen it's way too inefficient, if you're underweight maybe.

      fat is stored straight into your fat stores, when you take some fat from some fat person you can see exactly what kind of fatty foods they like, if they like fish there will be a lot of omega 3, if they like margarine or whatever a lot of trans fats. fat will only be used in a famine of sugar. That's what it's there for to get through the tough winter and it stores it without limits to the point where you have to be transported by a forklift.

      If calories in calories out was true then i should be morbidly obese yet i'm skinnier then i want to be. that girl that drinks gasoline should be super duper morbidly obese if calorie intake was everything that mattered.

      But you're saying that all that excess sugar is somewhere invisibly hiding somewhere in my body and in 20 years time it will convert to fat and i'll be morbidly obese.

      • Frantz > Taka April 21, 2016 at 7:12am
        Carbs DO turn into fat if you overeat them. That's where the math comes in. Anyone on a high carb diet is susceptible to this. You have to eat for your activity level. Overeating is the problem. Even McDougall would admit to this. You're not fat because you are not overeating for Your lifestyle. It's just that simple.
        • Taka > Frantz April 21, 2016 at 8:30pm

          First of all, though mcdougall mentions that high carb foods are calorie dilute and they fill up the stomach with the right amount of calories, he does say that excess carbs are burned off for heat or fidgetting, if he says anything else that's new.

          Excess Starch Does Not Turn to Body Fat

          A widely held belief is that the sugars in starches are readily converted into fat and then stored unattractively in the abdomen, hips, and buttock. Incorrect! And there is no disagreement about the truth among scientists or their published scientific research.5-13 After eating, the complex carbohydrates found in starches, such as rice, are digested into simple sugars in the intestine and then absorbed into the bloodstream where they are transported to trillions of cells in the body in order to provide for energy.  Carbohydrates (sugars) consumed in excess of the body’s daily needs can be stored (invisibly) as glycogen in the muscles and liver.  The total storage capacity for glycogen is about two pounds.  Carbohydrates consumed in excess of our need and beyond our limited storage capacity are not readily stored as body fat. Instead, these excess carbohydrate calories are burned off as heat (a process known as facultative dietary thermogenesis) or used in physical movements not associated with exercise.9,13

          The process of turning sugars into fats is known as de novo lipogenesis. Some animals, such as pigs and cows, can efficiently convert the low-energy, inexpensive carbohydrates found in grains and grasses into calorie-dense fats.5  This metabolic efficiency makes pigs and cows ideal “food animals.” Bees also perform de novo lipogenesis; converting honey (simple carbohydrates) into wax (fats). However, human beings are very inefficient at this process and as a result de novo lipogenesis does not occur under usual living conditions in people.5-13  When, during extreme conditions, de novo lipogenesis does occur the metabolic cost is about 30% of the calories consumed—a very wasteful process.11

          Under experimental laboratory conditions overfeeding of large amounts of simple sugars to subjects will result in a little bit of de novo lipogenesis.  For example, trim and obese women were overfed 50% more total calories than they usually ate in a day, along with an extra 3.5 ounces (135 grams) of refined sugar. From this overfeeding the women produced less than 4 grams (36 calories) of fat daily, which means a person would have to be overfed by this amount of extra calories and sugar every day for nearly 4 months in order to gain one extra pound of body fat.10 Obviously, even overeating substantial quantities of refined and processed carbohydrates is a relatively unimportant source of body fat. So where does all that belly fat come from? The fat you eat is the fat you wear.

          https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/mar/passionate.htm

          For years i make sure to eat at least 3200 kcal a day of high carb foods, before that i ate 2500 kcal a day (not more, not less) 50:50 fat:carbs i was gaining weight, with the same activity level (basically sitting behind the computer all day and maybe cycling to the supermarket (3x2=6km).

          I now even have/had thyroid issues, blood levels that would cause severe weight gain in most people. But i only have issues trying to maintain my weight, not worrying about it going up, but about it going down.

          It would take a wildly larger excess of carb calories to do the same as fat calories in terms of body fat, basically impossible to get obese from high carb foods alone.

          This calories in calories out nonsense, is just that, pure nonsense, like i said if that were the case that girl that is addicted to gasoline should be super duper morbidly obese

          The McDougall Newsletter - People Passionate About Starches are Healthy and Beautiful
          Over 100 people attended this biannual McDougall event in Santa Rosa, California. As always the enthusiasm, education, food, and friendship were over…
          • Taka > Taka April 23, 2016 at 7:32am

            i'm not using my own experience with the idea that it's scientific, i'm just sharing it.

            If you don't abstain from fat and you overeat, you will burn the carbs and store the fat.

            If you do abstain from fat you will burn the carbs and perhaps, maybe a very minuscule bit of fat is created through de novo lipogenesis, nothing worth mentioning though. overconsuming 100 kcal of carbs, even if there is de novo lipogenesis going on will produce nowhere near the amount of bodyfat you'll get from 100 kcal worth of fat.

          • Frantz > Taka April 22, 2016 at 6:54am

            http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2014/04/fat-vs-carbohydrate-o...

            We can go back and forth siting opposing studies but that misses the point.

            This notion that carbs don't turn into fat and can't be overeaten is a flat out lie. You can overeat anything.

            Yes, the body reacts differently to certain calorie types. That doesn't change the fact that over consumption results in weight gain.

            McDougall doesn't think that humans have the will power for moderation so he advises to abstain from fat. That supports the point that people tend to overeat. It doesn't matter which diet.

            High carb vs high fat is not what I'm debating. Im not focused on any macronutrient, just over consumption.

            Using personal antidotes or the results of one person is not how science works, which is why I don't do that.

            Fat vs. Carbohydrate Overeating: Which Causes More Fat Gain?
            Two human studies, published in 1995 and 2000, tested the effect of carbohydrate vs. fat overfeeding on body fat gain in humans.  What did t...
  • Frantz April 20, 2016 at 9:26am

    If you could eat 3000kcal of fat but you burned 4000kcal during your activities, you won't get fat. If you eat 3000kcal of carbs but you burn 2500kcal during your activities then you will get fat. Overeating is what makes you fat. Calorie types may work differently, but if you don't use them, they usually get stored as fat. One's physical activity, stress levels and lifestyle determines how many calories you burn in a day.

    Highly refined or processed carbs are far more detrimental to insulin sensitivity than anything else. Whole, unprocessed carbs are fine.

  • Frantz April 19, 2016 at 12:46pm

    Protein doesn't make you fat. Neither does carbs or fat. Overeating is what makes anyone fat. High protein intake has other health drawbacks however.

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